would this be a bad idea...

[Frodo]

i have been toying with the idea of putting 2 spares on the rear and see if it makes ANY difference at all... u think they would blow out on me?

[hozay09]

.........

[Frodo]

yes, i am retarted, just need to get that out of the way

[DrEdSrT4]

well theres only 1 way to find out bro..

[hozay09]

............

[N2MB]

naw its ok you dont trap high enough

[Nolimits]

You can borrow mine

[Frodo]

............
hey, you shut your mouth... dont be jealous that i will crush your big turbo time with my stocker:woot: (eventually)

[hozay09]

...........

[Frodo]

...........stop waisting space, i know that is what your best at but it is a serious question

[N2MB]

:poke: they are only rated for like 50 mph
stop waisting space, i know that is what your best at but it is a serious question

[hozay09]

stop waisting space, i know that is what your best at but it is a serious question

:lolatu:

[Nolimits]

I get get some helium from my old job and throw them into the spare tires so they would be even LIGHTER too

[N2MB]

hahaha i think i sharted!

[cokey]

just try it let us know what happens.. i've been up to 60 with a spare on.. but i doubt it's a good idea

[htheduck]

andy it can be done. i would bet money that it lowers your time: less drag, a little less rotating mass.

tires are rated for speed because of one additional factor that no one here pointed out - H E A T (and/or tempuratures). within 10-14 seconds a pass you would have nothing to worry about for rear tires heating up and blowing out. i would even venture to say pump them up to max pressure for the minimum contact patch to reduce drag.

(Negative issues): you will reduce the two contact patchs in the rear of your car - thus you will NOT be able to brake effectively. i would use all the run-out track you can to stop the car otherwise the rear will likely get unstable because of the weight transfer.

i would Seriously watch it when slowing down -- is my advice with two rear spares. keep up posted on what happens.

[DrEdSrT4]

just try it let us know what happens.. i've been up to 60 with a spare on.. but i doubt it's a good idea

ive tuned my WGA on my spare.. it actually grips pretty good for what it is :lol:

[CaRaZyGuY]

Haha i so thought of this the first time i ran the car down the track, two donuts = po man skinnies.

[Frodo]

andy it can be done. i would bet money that it lowers your time: less drag, a little less rotating mass.
tires are rated for speed because of one additional factor that no one here pointed out - H E A T (and/or tempuratures). within 10-14 seconds a pass you would have nothing to worry about for rear tires heating up and blowing out. i would even venture to say pump them up to max pressure for the minimum contact patch to reduce drag.
(Negative issues): you will reduce the two contact patchs in the rear of your car - thus you will NOT be able to brake effectively. i would use all the run-out track you can to stop the car otherwise the rear will likely get unstable because of the weight transfer.
i would Seriously watch it when slowing down -- is my advice with two rear spares. keep up posted on what happens.
thanks for the only usefull input howard

[hozay09]

............

[N2MB]

come on guys....you cant be serious


you cant race on donuts...they are not rated to go that fast.

andy seriously you should not be racing on spare tires.howard im surprised you would even consider it

[Nolimits]

What we need is some V-rated donuts, what kind of tires do those mustang guys run on their skinnies?

[N2MB]

e.t. drags

[Co Pilot]

come on guys....you cant be serious
you cant race on donuts...they are not rated to go that fast.
andy seriously you should not be racing on spare tires.howard im surprised you would even consider it
I agree!!!:slap:

[kgmdawg84]

haha, andy is funny

[Nolimits]

I believe Howard is right though, they are only being used for a limited time, down the 1/4 mile. Not enough for heat to make it a factor, definitely no cornering or issues involving the sidewall. And since the car's weight is based on the front, the tires in front take most of the weight on them (although when the car wheelhops, does the weight go off the front tires and onto the rear?). I think it would work for its limited use.

[hozay09]

you gotta be kidding me.... please, put on the donuts and go race. We need new vids over in war stories..

[BlackDragon]

Its been done, shaves like 2-3 tenths, but they are unstable at the end of the track...

[BlackDragon]

I am not for or against, merely stating thats its been done...

[hozay09]

http://nelson.oit.unc.edu/~alanh/images/dumbass-293x184.jpg

[Nolimits]

So much hate on the Stage 2 guys in this club, or is it really jealousy and fear that the stage 2 guys are gonna own the track. Im dropping off the spare tire 2morrow Andy

[htheduck]

Its been done, shaves like 2-3 tenths, but they are unstable at the end of the track...

The entire car is unstable at the end of the track because, what do you do at the end of the track: BRAKE!

So again, let me restate the following - WATCH how you apply the brakes during the end of you run. You don't want MAXIMUM weight transfer to the fronts - meaning you DON'T WANT TO SLAM ON THE BRAKES.

What some people forget is that TIRES stop the car, not brakes. You don't have enought tire with just donuts for the rear to do effective work.

One last suggestion-is that you make sure those spares are BALANCED before you mount them...(most people don't take the time to balance spares)--so you don't want wheel vibrations while the car is in motion.

I'm not for or against. The facts/issues are on the table.

[DrEdSrT4]

andy lets try it...

[htheduck]

come on guys....you cant be serious
you cant race on donuts...they are not rated to go that fast.
andy seriously you should not be racing on spare tires.howard im surprised you would even consider it

andy is considering it.

[Munky]

What track are you guys going to try this at?!? I want to make sure I'm not there for when you go sideways after the traps and smack into the wall. I wouldn't want to lose any run time.:w00t: But good luck to you either way.

[riffers]

make sure you get video of this!!!

I really think Hozay put it best when he said "........."

[htheduck]

what's the verdict andrew? do you have enough information?

[Nolimits]

I really doubt the car is going to oversteer under medium to light braking, his ABS will still be active and he's got another 1/4 mile length to brake which is more than enough.

[htheduck]

I doubt it too. He will be braking in a straight line.

(No one ever said anything about an oversteer condition) - in fact, what STEERING DO YOU EVEN PERFORM AT A 1350 FEET? (I rarely see any)

-Keep this thread going - I love debates!!!

[Frodo]

I agree!!!:slap: oh wait, nevermind, tj the drag racer says its a bad idea:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Kwik-e-nuff]

glad its not me driving, good luck andy make sure i go before u lol.

[jigga_x]

i'd like to see the results of this...i don't think that it would defy the laws of physics. it's obviously been done before. however, there is a point where safety is sacrificed for speed and this would definitely be walking that thin line!

[Co Pilot]

oh wait, nevermind, tj the drag racer says its a bad idea:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Fuck you dude, do what you want, i'm just putting in my input!!!:mad:

[Kwik-e-nuff]

the first question is will the track let you do this??????

[Sleeper01]

hahah i remember running on a donut caught a flat in Six Flags Parking Lot, and had to go home at 40mph all the way back to the City, Darkilla was with me tiring drive, but when i hit the Holland Tunnel went 80mphs lasted okay

[DaFlyyOnDaWall]

engine brake

[Just A Neon]

........ Dont Do it lol thats pure crazyness i have front runners sitting in my garage but i need rims to go in it =/

[Frodo]

ok, first off, i never said that i was going to do it so everyone can just calm down... it was just a question

[htheduck]

Howard, right now it doesn't matter how many math problems you can solve in less then 60 seconds.

I was merely stating facts about weight transfer. Dragon backedup the initial idea with the fact that is has been done. Again, I never said go and do it: all I said I was neither for or against and wanted to know if Andy had enough information to make a decision.

Please, I have no hard feelings on here because I never express sentiment on these forums--just stating facts that I can back up. I will leave it for those who have 'RACED ON A TRACK NOW' ;)

[hozay09]

anyway, I apologize for disrespecting you Howard. That was my bad. I'm a little pissy today and I took it out on you. I'll remove em.

[Co Pilot]

No reason to close this thread. NoSuchLuck just asked a simple question, and he is weighing the opinions of those who want to give it. Please keep it civilized!!!

-Co Pilot

[BlackDragon]

here's an Idea... When I get my bogarts, We'll do a couple of back to back runs with a consistant runner like Jeff, with real Skinnies. That'll put the question to rest for the bolt on guys. If it is worth it, I'll put some time into researching a set of budget skinnies, maybe a set of 15 inch neon donut rims with mickeys on them, and if they are worth it pricewise, maybe we'll offer them, but that decision will be up to Jose and Jay...

[DrEdSrT4]

oh wait, nevermind, tj the drag racer says its a bad idea:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:rofl:

[N2MB]

ok heres my honest opinion of what i know about this,

i never said that it cant be done,my biggest problem with this and anyone who has been around the track for some time im sure would agree is safety.every track has its own bylaws in which you have to meet to run.some arent as strict as others but the bottom line is those are in place for safety.quite honestly physics say that if you have less rotating mass there will be less centrifugal force on a round rotating object.under accelleration there is a constant inertia working its way to the outer diameter of a wheel.the reason why skinnies work better is because they are lighter and a smaller diameter.there is less drag on the wheel due to less weight being pushed to the outer edge.if you have ever watched an experiment on co-efficiency on a car you will notice that the wheels are almost like razors.they are extreme lightweight and have very little contact surface reducing drag.this concept is very similar to what we are talking about here.a "skinny" is designed with just that purpose.they are lightweight and efficient but the most important part of a skinny is the tire thats mounted on it.the tire on a spare or temp tire is only 2 ply and is bias.
what does this mean?
well considering that tires that are on skinnies are radial with multiple plies they can withstand the seperation of the cords and plies under speed.a bias tire cannot withstand due to the way its made.there are 2 plies that are laid at about a 40 degree angle to each other.radials are laid down at right angles and make them stronger.at higher speeds the bias tire will try to compress together and spring apart.this creates alot of heat and is why its not safe.a run or two on spares may yield better times but after a few runs the composition of the tire has been severely compromised.
ok so thats how i feel about running on donuts.if a spare tire is only rated to go say 50 mph and you are trapping a 1/4 mile pass at 10x.xx then you are taking the tire more than 2 times past the limit of which it was designed.you may save yourself a couple tenths off your e.t. but ive spent many days at the track and have seen more than my share of cars lose it at top end and i honestly cant remember a single time that either the driver was injured or the car was totalled.and remember one thing.. put yourself in this situation...
your in the left lane and your right rear tire blows out,well guess what..there is a guy in that lane next to you going full speed and should you two collide you put his life in danger too.
so in summary....
if you dont care about your life,your car,or the guy next you then by all means try to shave a tenth or two off the e.t. but imho stupidity should be painful it just shouldnt involve any one else .

[hozay09]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[riffers]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

mmm i second that Hozay, I'll smoke to that :blunt: :smoke: :bandit:

[mr_eh]

track wont let you run on donuts....

[htheduck]

This discussion is great. Safety ALWAYS comes first.

The cars that lose it on the top end --- lose it because of what Jay?
Tire deterioration? Weight transfer? Insufficient brakes? Overall vehicle instability? Are they still accelerating or applying braking? What has happened to cause them not to run in a straight line?

I would be curious/interested to know with regards to everything you've witnessed.

ONE way to solve the heat question is is to take a pyrometer & air gauge and measure the net change in operating temps of a donut: under the exact conditions of a rear trailing wheel:
-travel a few measureable distances and mark changes in tempurature, humidity, and air pressure
-a few calculations later and you can estimate what tempuratures & pressures may rise to at 10x.xx+ mph

[Hassviper]

think of it this way,
take a weight on the end of a string and swing it in a circle. Now that string can handle a certain amount of tension then it will snap. The tension in this string can be increased either by swinging it faster, or abrubtly trying to slow it down.
This is the same idea with the tire. If it's going faster, the sidewall is the string and the contact surface is the weight. So when you go faster your sidewall which is only rated to handle a certain speed experiences extra tension and could theoritically snap past that tension. That tension is calculated by the speed the tire is going. Now tires and most other saftey devices have a pretty big cushion, and speed isn't the only thing that they take into account when making the ratings. So a 50 mph tire is rated to handle all sorts of abuse at 50 mph, potholes, turning and like howard said braking...Braking increases the tension as well because the tire is experiencing serious friction and the sidewall has some intense tension in it as a result, and that's taken into account as well.

So like howard said you can take the tire past 50 mph because the tire CAN handle that stress, but they aren't supposed to handle that stress AND brake from that speed.

This made sense in my mind let me know if anyone needs more explanation.

Oh and I just had a physics exam on this shit not even a month ago so i can
provide numbers to back my words up.

[Nolimits]

Andy went to the track 2nite...

[DaRkILLa]

well my friend was driving 80mph on the donut.. on the front tire on normal driving conditions for more than 30 minutes. so if that donuts could handle the stress and considering that car was much heavier than the pos neon.

im pretty sure going down the track for what 12-14 seconds shouldnt be much of a problem just as long as u have enought track left to stop..

the fastest the car would probably go is 100-120 apply the brakes 25-35% and that should stop the car in time...

safety?? oh its a safety issue...... if u have a big fmic why would u care about safety? didnt u take out the crash bar thats suppost to protect you from a head on crash?? just to put that big fmic..

[Frodo]

thanks for all the info and opinions everyone! this turned out to be quite informative

[htheduck]

Now tires and most other saftey devices have a pretty big cushion, and speed isn't the only thing that they take into account when making the ratings. So a 50 mph tire is rated to handle all sorts of abuse at 50 mph, potholes, turning and like howard said braking...Braking increases the tension as well because the tire is experiencing serious friction and the sidewall has some intense tension in it as a result, and that's taken into account as well.
So like howard said you can take the tire past 50 mph because the tire CAN handle that stress, but they aren't supposed to handle that stress AND brake from that speed.
This made sense in my mind let me know if anyone needs more explanation.
Oh and I just had a physics exam on this shit not even a month ago so i can
provide numbers to back my words up.

Like Jay described the manufacturing configuration of the plies: those tires can't handle the HEAT of prolonged high speeds. A tire deforms during every rotation it undergos, creating heat.

Nor is there enough of a width of contact patch(es) to perform standard braking:

-the fronts would be doing most of the work combined with the weight transfer to the front: that makes for an unstable, stopping situation

-this is great for trailbraking into a turn !!! - but on a straight line course with walls: :eek:

[N2MB]

This discussion is great. Safety ALWAYS comes first.
The cars that lose it on the top end --- lose it because of what Jay?
Tire deterioration? Weight transfer? Insufficient brakes? Overall vehicle instability? Are they still accelerating or applying braking? What has happened to cause them not to run in a straight line?
I would be curious/interested to know with regards to everything you've witnessed.
ONE way to solve the heat question is is to take a pyrometer & air gauge and measure the net change in operating temps of a donut: under the exact conditions of a rear trailing wheel:
-travel a few measureable distances and mark changes in tempurature, humidity, and air pressure
-a few calculations later and you can estimate what tempuratures & pressures may rise to at 10x.xx+ mph

well i would say that a very good portion of cars that ive seen wreck at the traps were due guys running powerglide trannies and lock up,majority of them wind up going through the traps on the roof,but ive seen guys try to pedal and get out of line and turn into the wall or another car.tire blowouts,drivers that cant handle fast cars,explosions,implosions etc etc lol.ive never seen someone crash due to spare tires but then again most guys running fast cars wouldnt consider it.the bottom line though is you will hardly ever see a car lose it throught he traps and not cause an assload of damage

[DrEdSrT4]

well i would say that a very good portion of cars that ive seen wreck at the traps were due guys running powerglide trannies and lock up,majority of them wind up going through the traps on the roof,but ive seen guys try to pedal and get out of line and turn into the wall or another car.tire blowouts,drivers that cant handle fast cars,explosions,implosions etc etc lol.ive never seen someone crash due to spare tires but then again most guys running fast cars wouldnt consider it.the bottom line though is you will hardly ever see a car lose it throught he traps and not cause an assload of damage

*knocks on wood* :bash2:

[hozay09]

nothing wrong in here, just a healthy debate... I'm watching it...

It'll will be researched more by me personally and I will keep up with this...

-Ant